ABC: McCain Decided On Palin THURSDAY NIGHT, Wanted Lieberman

ABC's Jan Crawford Greenburg has a fascinating piece up on McCain's decision making process in choosing Sarah Palin to be his running mate.

Apparently Palin was a last-minute pick, was only vetted this week, and was only chosen by McCain once it became clear that his desired pick, Lieberman, wasn't feasible.

It wasn't until Sunday night that John McCain, after meeting with his four top advisers, finally decided he could not tap independent Sen. Joe Lieberman of Connecticut to be his running mate. One adviser, tasked with taking the temperature of the conservative base, had strongly made the case to McCain that it would be a disaster for the party and that the base would revolt. McCain concluded he could not go that route.

The next day, McCain studied the three men at the top of his shortlist: Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty, former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney and former Pennsylvania Gov. Tom Ridge. All had different strengths and negatives, but McCain was not satisfied. None of them had what McCain believed he needed to do -- and would have done -- with Lieberman.

The campaign secretly flew Palin into Dayton last night. She and McCain met privately for a couple of hours. McCain concluded she would "shake up the system" and was "a maverick," qualities he believed Lieberman would have brought to the ticket. But she also would appeal to conservatives -- which Lieberman most certainly would not have done.

After their meeting, McCain concluded he was comfortable with his choice. He notified Pawlenty this morning that he was going in a different direction.

I had been wondering in the back of my mind if the success of the Dem Convention - and Obama's bump in the polls - had led McCain to panic. Now we have confirmation that he did indeed make the decision to pick Palin while all of this was going on - and made the final call during or after Obama's acceptance speech.

UPDATE: Strangely, the official press release from the McCain campaign tells a slightly different story, in terms of timeline.

This past week, Governor Palin arrived with Kris Perry in Flagstaff, Arizona, on Wednesday evening. Upon arrival, Governor Palin and her longtime aide Kris Perry met with Steve Schmidt and Mark Salter of the McCain campaign at Mr. Bob Delgado’s home in Flagstaff. Mr. Delgado is the CEO of the Hensley corporation, which is Mrs. Cindy McCain’s family business. On Thursday morning, Governor Palin and staff were joined by Mrs. Cindy McCain and later joined by John McCain at the McCain family home in Sedona, Arizona. At approximately 11:00 a.m. Thursday August 28, 2008, John McCain formally invited Governor Sarah Palin to join the Republican ticket as the vice presidential nominee on the deck of the McCain family home.


Display:


Palin (2.00 / 6)

For McCain to make a snap judgment like this and put someone on the bottom of his ticket who is clearly unqualified to assume the presidency is just incredibly reckless and irresponsible, given his advanced age.

This may help McCain with evangelicals but I predict the bottom will fall out for him among Independents and traditional moderate Republicans.  I don't think they'll be too happy about Palin.


by Will Graham on Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 11:52:51 PM EST

COMPLETE PANIC 111!!111!!!!!!!!!!!1111 (2.00 / 3)

when you look at the video clip of the introduction, he has to read her name from a index card.  

He didn't know her name, he had to read it off a cue card.

It was a complete panic reaction to Denver.  Their internal focus groups tracking the speech must of been off the charts, trigging the panic.

God, I watching "Good Morning America" and they just said, they look like "father and daughter" and they're discussing the fact that Palin is a global warming denier.


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 11:06:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This country, I swear (2.00 / 1)

We are well on our way to electing President Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho in the near future.  


by ReillyDiefenbach on Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 07:18:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This country, I swear (none / 0)

Greatest fucking movie ever made!

It should be shown in high school civics classes.


"Can We Build It? Yes We Can!" - Bob the Builder
by Stipes on Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 11:45:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Some happy chappys in Republic land (2.00 / 6)

Oh, I bet Pawlenty and Mitt are just joyfull that the Dobson wing of the party decided they weren't "Conservative" enough.....

Yup, I was feeling McCain wanted Lieberman, but, he watched Obama speak, and needed to do something to shake it up.....


On Nov 4th, we elected "the smart guy" and the world celebrated!
by WashStateBlue on Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 11:55:24 PM EST

Re: Some happy chappys in Republic land (2.00 / 4)

Yeah this just reeks of desperation.


by Will Graham on Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 11:59:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Think of all the Mormons for Mitt. (2.00 / 4)

"Our guy got passed over because he was too Mormon.  We're not Christian enough for Dobson!"


by Dumbo on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 12:12:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Think of all the Mormons for Mitt. (2.00 / 4)

Mitt wasn't Christian enough.
Ridge was too edgy.
Pawlenty was too moderate.

Republicans: it's a big tent, but we're kicking people out to make some more room for our piles of money.


by TCQuad on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 12:30:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Lieberman is too Jewish (2.00 / 1)

Buchanan said if McSame picked Joementum, he would lead protest in St. Paul.


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 12:14:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lieberman is too Jewish (2.00 / 1)

Damn...!  What a wasted opportunity...  I would have LOVED to see Pat make an ass out of himself at another convention...


McCain/Palin... even scarier than Bush/Cheney... and that's saying something!
by JenKinFLA on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 08:52:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Think of all the Mormons for Mitt. (2.00 / 1)

Apparently, the Romney Delegation is PISSED.  I'll be watching the Republican Convention with at least one eye this week.  I know Republicans have a reputation for getting in line, but I've got my fingers crossed.


I'm voting for Saxby Chambliss!
by Jess81 on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 12:46:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Think of all the Mormons for Mitt. (2.00 / 2)

Cross your toes too, cause it won't happen.

Like good little Rethug soldiers they'll do as their told quietly and without a peep.  

If Evangelicals were Democrats, they would have told McSame to screw himself as the PUMAs did with Obama.  Instead they've fallen in goose-step like the Rethugs they are 80%+ support.

Our party is the true big-tent party and that brings pluses and minuses.


If you had everything, where would you put it?
by wasanyonehurt on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 12:34:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Romney Should be Delirious (none / 0)

He's the odds-on favorite to be the 2012 nominee, either if McCain loses (more likely than not) or if McCain wins (there remains a solid chance McCain only serves one term, something he might well announce at next week's RNC).


by Collideascope on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 02:36:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Romney Should be Delirious (2.00 / 2)

God, I hope so. If 40 plus million can't even buy Romney the nomination, he's completely unelectable.


by animated on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 02:41:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Think of all the Mormons for Mitt. (2.00 / 3)

I'll trade AK for depressed Mormon turnout in CO, AZ, NM, MT and NV.


by magster on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 03:06:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Ah... (2.00 / 2)

I see I'm not the only one to think about Mormon demographics!  Yup.  There are a lot of Mormons in the western swing states.  I don't know about Montana, but CO, NM, NV, definitely.


by Dumbo on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 03:27:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ah... (2.00 / 2)

As of 2000, the states with the biggest % of adults identifying themselves as LDS were:

Utah 57%
Idaho 14%
Nevada 9%
Arizona 6%
Oregon 4%
Colorado and New Mexico are around 3% Mormon, I think. I don't know about Montana, but it is likely around 3% too.


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 03:49:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ah... (none / 0)

Oregon????

To all my pals in Corvallis and P-town...you folks live in a strange state...


by gil44 on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 11:40:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ah... (none / 0)

Yes, Oregon. There are currently 5 Mormon Senators:

Robert Bennett (R-Utah) since 1993
Michael Crapo (R-Idaho) since 1999
Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) since 1977
Harry Reid (D-Nevada) since 1987
Gordon Smith (R-Oregon) since 1997

We are hoping to scrub that last one from the list this year, while adding a Udall each from NM and CO


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 01:29:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Think of all the Mormons for Mitt. (none / 0)

The first Mormon POTUS will be Mark Udall, not Mittens.


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 03:38:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Think of all the Mormons for Mitt. (none / 0)

Doubt it.  If Obama wins, he'll be 66 in eight years.  If Obama loses, he'll be 62.

Besides, I love the Udalls (Tom is my Rep. and soon to be Senator) -- but they aren't the most forceful speakers.


New Mexico politics from the local perspective.
by fbihop on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 06:19:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Think of all the Mormons for Mitt. (none / 0)

I thought Mark's short speech at the DNC was better delivered than most or all of the supposed VP short-listers who spoke. Way better than Tim Kaine IMHO.

But mostly, I like to think and say stuff like that because it pisses off my Mormon Republican in-laws. They despise the Udalls and the Babbits.  :-)


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 01:23:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ABC: McCain Decided On Palin LAST NIGHT (2.00 / 7)

What a maverick! He does things without even thinking them through! He's a spontaneous guy! He chooses his running mate not on the basis of what's best for the country, but on what he's TOLD is best for him politically!

I mean, holy shit. The nation is seeing a would-be emperor already strip himself naked right before their eyes while still maintaining that he wears the clothes of a presumptive king. It would be laughable were it not for the fact that there are still substantial numbers who still refuse to see the naked truth. But I think those numbers are going to start falling.


"This victory alone is not the change we seek -- it is only the chance for us to make that change." -- Nov. 4, 2008
by BobzCat on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 12:03:07 AM EST

For FIVE LONG YEARS he wasn't allowed to decide (2.00 / 3)

Listen my friend, for five long years he didn't have the luxury of changing his clothes!  For five long years it was a daily struggle to do any thinking of any kind!  For five long years the only sponteneity in his life was at the hands of the commie bastards who tortured him.  This man is a WAR HERO POW and he has earned the right to think how he likes & when he likes.  If you question his thinking, or not thinking, you are just an unpatriotic monster who hates freedom!


A drink whenever Palin makes a Well-argued, Semantically Intact, Logical and Lucid Argument -- or WASILLA for short.
by January 20 on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 04:16:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The Manchurian candidate (none / 0)

So he's the Manchurian candidate. After all communist and ex-communist leaders know more about how McCain thinks then we do. They had five years to dissect his thought processes. And if you think they didn't share this info with each other, especially once he started running for office, then you are very naive.


by venician on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 12:11:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Manchurian candidate (2.00 / 1)

What if his mother gets her hands on a deck of cards!?!?!?


A drink whenever Palin makes a Well-argued, Semantically Intact, Logical and Lucid Argument -- or WASILLA for short.
by January 20 on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 07:22:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Recced. (2.00 / 0)

Put this on the rec list, or the front page.  This is startling, that he could be so reckless and desperate.

There is a lot more going on to this than we have heard even now.  Did you see him at his announcement with Palin?  Watch his body language.  Not exactly gushing.


by Dumbo on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 12:09:58 AM EST

Re: Recced. (2.00 / 1)

I know!  He was literally reading his notes over passages like "I am proud to announce..."

wtf.


I'm voting for Saxby Chambliss!
by Jess81 on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 12:43:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ABC: (2.00 / 0)

I knew it. She has not been FULLY vetted. She is wet dynamite in their hands.


by RandyMI on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 12:17:59 AM EST

Re: ABC: (2.00 / 2)

Well, she's sure as hell going to get vetted now.  Sheesh, if I was a McCain supporter I would be sweating bullets right now.  Thankfully I'm not.


by Will Graham on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 12:22:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ABC: (2.00 / 2)

I actually feel a little sorry for her.  She is completely unprepared for even the next 2 months.  She's going to be creamed, I'm afraid, far worse than Dan Quayle.

The debate will be downright painful.


The universe is a casual place, not a suit-and-tie affair.
by mtnspirit on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 01:38:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Nah. (2.00 / 1)

She is fortunate enough to be a Republican so she isn't required to tell the truth, or know anything more than talking points. She just needs to know how to string together 3 words God, Values, Guns.


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 02:08:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ABC: (none / 0)

Dude, you've got some ... McCain ... on you.


by PghArch on Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 11:11:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yowzers. (2.00 / 3)

I don't understand the Republican base so the Lieberman pick may have had negative consequences that I don't get, but I was scared of that one.  What happens to the focus of Barack Obama's attacks, that John McCain is an extention of the failed policies of George W. Bush, when McCain puts a (nominal) Democrat on the ticket?  The metaphor of a fork hitting water comes to mind.

Instead, John McCain brilliantly decided to take the argument that he'd been making all year and render it totally absurd.

Palin and Lieberman are both surprise picks, no doubt about it: Lieberman because it would be the first bipartisan ticket in 150 years, and Palin because she's the most ridiculous pick in history.  

The moral of the story, I guess, is that if John McCain thinks he needs to make a bang, he'll make a bang - damn the torpedos.  Republicans should be breathing a sigh of relief that he didn't pick a life-sized statue of General Patton as his runningmate.


I'm voting for Saxby Chambliss!
by Jess81 on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 12:42:19 AM EST

Re: Yowzers. (none / 0)

Lieberman actually can't be the nominee according to repug rules....has to be a registered repug for 90 days before the convention.


by IowaMike on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 02:01:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yowzers. (2.00 / 1)

I don't believe there is any such 90 day rule unless they recently enacted that.

In any case Sore Loserman would have been a godsend from Yaweh as that's about the only pick that would have neutron bombed the Rethug base.


If you had everything, where would you put it?
by wasanyonehurt on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 12:41:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ABC: McCain Decided On Palin LAST NIGHT (none / 0)

The most surprising thing to me in this diary is the line:

Upon arrival, Governor Palin and her longtime aide Kris Perry...


John McCain smells like mothballs.
by asherrem on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 01:00:51 AM EST

Re: (2.00 / 2)

If all that is true, then perhaps the biggest effect of Obama's speech last night was to get McCain to completely switch the entire framework of his campaign from "Experience" to "Reformering Mavericky Dynamo". It isn't often that one campaign to able to force another to make that kind of mid-stream swap.

Of course The Reformering Mavericky Duo will find that it is hard to argue that you're going to reform Washington when you agree with 90% of what's gone on there in the last 8 years. It makes one wonder what exactly they would change. Could it be possible to out-Bush Bush?


by JENKINS on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 02:02:50 AM EST

McCain Decided On Palin LAST NIGHT (2.00 / 1)

What I've found surprising is that McCain had only met Palin in the last six months and only had a 5 minute conversation with her before he told her she was the pick.  How do you pick a VP like that?


"In the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope." -Barack Obama
by blueAZ on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 02:36:20 AM EST

I'm Just saying (2.00 / 3)

So McCain's first wife was a former swimsuit model until she was disfigured in a terrible car accident.  When McCain returned home from his war camp, he was displeased, was unfaithful and eventually dropped her for another beauty queen Cindy.
Now he picks a VP who is also a former beauty queen, he has only met once and has virtually zero experience.  Does he make his most important life experiences off of beauty?  I mean really?  I'm not saying, I am JUST saying....
by Scope441 on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 02:40:44 AM EST

Is McCain OK? (2.00 / 0)

Seriously, is McCain OK?  Is this the beginning signs of going senile?  He only met her for 5 minutes?  Did he even ask her any questions or was he completely smitten by her beauty?  While she gave her acceptance speech today, i swear he was staring at her ass.  Watch the video, I am almost embarrassed for him.  
I am in shock and feel now that his campaign is a downright joke.
by Scope441 on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 02:44:49 AM EST

Re: ABC: McCain Decided On Palin LAST NIGHT, Wante (2.00 / 1)

Why does this remind me of Bush looking into Putin's soul?  I just heard McCain say it again, once we get to know her we'l know what he knows about her "grit and integrity."  Um.  Okay.  I guess he looked into her soul (or something) in their meeting this week.  


Jesus Christ was a community organizer and Pontius Pilate was a governor.
by GRO on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 04:25:49 AM EST

Re: ABC: McCain Decided On Palin LAST NIGHT (2.00 / 1)

Between rejecting Lieberman and picking a Buchanite as vp, Jewish Floridians are not going to be interested in a McCain ticket.

The only thing this pick does is to enthuse the evangelicals, which is not nothing politically, but it probably also drives away independents.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 07:27:59 AM EST

Re: ABC: McCain Decided On Palin LAST NIGHT, Wante (none / 0)

"The only thing this pick does is to enthuse the evangelicals..."

I think that is the point.  Here's their strategy:
1) pick a surprise choice right after Obama's speech to overshadow his headlines 2) pick someone who will shore up the Republican base, not alienate 3) pick someone who is not well known enough to the rest of America where the low information swing voter could actually be persuaded by their rhetoric. 4) pick someone that reinforces McCain's maverick image so as he can appear like a Washington reformer 5) pick someone that Biden is going to have to adjust his style around in the VP debate - he has to be paternalistic not rough to the young, attractive lady or it will be used to further alienate emotional swing voters. Biden doesn't do well with censuring himself (FYI - noone has to adjust their style with Clinton b/c she has been demonized for 30+ years & is not a young, attractive woman which changes people's attitudes.)

This is some of the mindset of the GOP - we'll see how it works for them.  There is no way though they are going to alienate their base.


by jrsygrl on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 08:17:21 AM EST

Re: ABC: McCain Decided On Palin LAST NIGHT, Wante (2.00 / 0)

I'm not worried about Biden... he did fine with Hillary in the debates...


It profits a PUMA nothing to give their soul for the whole world... but for McCain? --Sir Thomas More (if he were here now)
by LordMike on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 11:25:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ABC: McCain Decided On Palin LAST NIGHT, Wante (none / 0)

Hillary Clinton has been demonized for 30+ years - not the same thing at all.  


by jrsygrl on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 12:50:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Palin palin' on compassion test (none / 0)

Since she was just vetted in a few days, I'm guessing McCain camp didn't know all the juicy bits about Palin.

For example, caught on live radio laughing alongside a slimy host insulting a senator by calling her a bitch and a cancer (knowing full well the senator was a cancer survivor), with Palin laughing, giggling along merrily the whole time.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/30/ 82113/4808/746/579971

Since McCain wants more war and confrontation, she's sure to bring up confrontation with any country I bet, with that thick-skinned attitude of hers.


by Arde on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 10:19:42 AM EST

Re: ABC: McCain Decided On Palin LAST NIGHT, (none / 0)

I have said it before and I will say it again. Palin was not necessarily a terrible choice. In my opinion, I would rather have seen McCain piss off his base and the anti-Iraq war independents by selecting that idiot Lieberman. She even has a son going to Iraq and she hasn't been trumpeting the Bush line on the war like Kay Bailey Hutchinson. When Kay Bailey speaks, she puts me to sleep and Kay Bailey has gone to bat for Bush too often on his greatest disaster - the iraq war.

People had no problem voting for religious nuts in the past. Witness 2004. They won't have a problem tolerating her exztreme abortion views. The only way you can capitalize on the abortion issue  is to get her in a Dukakis like moment regarding rape and abortion. It has to be really akward moment and not let her wiggle out of it using personal principles as an excuse.

But seriously. What you need in a president is a strong vision and leadership. She seems to have both. The fact that her vision is something we definitely do not share with her is irrelevant.  You do not need to be a policy wonk.

She will energize more voters and will attract more women as she gets to campaign in person. All the backlash you see is a result of no one really exposed to her strong points. Have you seen her speak? She blows Kay Bailey and Lieberman out of the water. People say she will turn of the crossover voters. I don't know. if those people foolishly voted for Bush and Cheney in 2004, why wouldnt they vote for her and she is only the VP candidate when she has had a more impressive rise than Bush Jr. Bush Jr needed his dad's network to get where he was as governor.  You can only hope to trip her up in the debates about some ignorance of the big issues. And that will require Biden to raise some issues himself ignoring the lame predictable questions posed by the moderators.
 


by Pravin on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 10:58:20 AM EST

Re: ABC: McCain Decided On Palin LAST NIGHT, (2.00 / 1)

She will get votes, that's for sure.. the base is fired up... I don't think she'll get many democratic women 'cos of her being so conservative and seen as a "token" pick, but she may pick off some young evangelicals and right-leaning women...

The base could care less about actual governing, so they aren't going to look at her complete lack of qualifications for governing...


It profits a PUMA nothing to give their soul for the whole world... but for McCain? --Sir Thomas More (if he were here now)
by LordMike on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 11:28:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ABC: McCain Decided On Palin LAST NIGHT, (none / 0)

Pravin,

We don't have to do a thing now.  The meme has already been cast by the MSM.

The portrayal of this ticket as "Beauty and the Beast, Father & Daughter, McCain likes Beauty Queens" is already running in the mainstream.

We don't have to say a peep.  The MSM is vetting her publicly.  It's bad now, and only going to get worse as they dig, and dig, and dig as only the wolf pack can.


"Can We Build It? Yes We Can!" - Bob the Builder
by Stipes on Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 11:57:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ABC: McCain Decided On Palin LAST NIGHT, Wante (2.00 / 1)

What the Republicans learned from George Bush is that anyone can be President with a heavy like Dick Cheney calling the shots from behind the scenes.  If forced to serve as President, Palin is not prepared to be anything but a proxy for some one or combination of Republicans acting behind the scenes.         The important question is not "who is Palin" but who is likely to rise to power in a McCain administration.  That's your real choice to be a heartbeat away from John McCain.  


Barbara
by Barbara19850 on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 11:03:19 AM EST

Re: ABC: McCain Decided On Palin THURSDAY NIGHT, W (none / 0)

The Republicans have also learned that they can brand anything.  It is easier for them to take someone the public knows nothing about and make her into anything they want.  The democrats have to be careful not to get caught up in details (like an extended 'experience' debate).  This race moved back into big picture branding.


by PghArch on Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 11:16:04 AM EST


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